Ryan Couch

(This picture may be a little old…kind of like Realtor’s pictures on their business cards)

Michael Newnham of the Phoenix Preacher recently interviewed Tom Stipe, a Calvary Chapel Pastor with whom I deeply respect. I recently had the opportunity to sit down with Tom at the NWPC and what a privilege that was. Tom is intelligent, funny, and humble. Three things that pastors typically aren’t…wait I’m a pastor

Tom is a great man and a voice that I wish more men in our movement would tune in to.

You can read the interview on the PP here…or I’ve included it below as well.

“Tom Stipe is the pastor of Crossroads Church in Denver CO.

He has an incredible resume, having been a vital part of the birth of both the Calvary Chapel and Vineyard movements.

He and his wife Maryellen have been used of God for over thirty years to minister the saving, healing grace of Jesus Christ all over the world.

We in the PP family are honored to call them friends in the truest sense of the word.

I asked Tom for a few minutes to talk about “The Shack” and why he invited Paul Young to speak at his church.

You will hear the heart of a true pastor in his answers…

PP: Why Paul Young and why now?

TS: I initially read The Shack after my friend Bill Ritchie recommended it to me. I have always been interested in ways that the arts, music and literature can be used to present the truths of the Gospel, so I was intrigued to read the novel that my friend was enthused about.

I was not disappointed; in fact I was also captivated by the writer’s easy style and profound content and found the book hard to put down.  As a singer and songwriter for years I had found that story songs were the most effective way for me to communicate my faith when performing in public. So, it was not surprising that The Shack held a special appeal for me.  It captured my attention because I immediately recognized its value as a modern day parable.

If someone were to ask me to draw a picture of the Trinity I would not know where to begin.  Yet, Paul Young in The Shack presented through words an open door to me that allowed me to think about what it might be like to be behind the proverbial veil where God can be approached an interacted with. The idea of having a weekend retreat with the Trinity with all my own questions, doubts, frustrations and fears was frightening, intriguing and entertaining all at the same time.

I enjoyed what I experienced as I was challenged and encouraged by the content of The Shack. I wanted the people of my church to have a chance to share the experience and as Bill had done to me, I suggested that many of them read the novel.

The idea of having William Paul Young as a speaker to our congregation came as I heard over and over again how the book was being used as a catalyst for deep personal ministry in many individual’s lives.  One day after hearing of yet another person who was ministered to by the book I decided to pick up the phone and find out a little more about Mr. Young.  Paul Young was unexpectedly accessible and it did not take long to become better acquainted with the man behind the book.

I was amazed to hear the background and context of The Shack, the story behind the story was an equally edifying account of the work of God.  As I was blessed by knowing Young I wanted more people to hear the story behind the story in this extraordinary man’s life.  From years of experience I know the value behind a well chosen personal testimony in church life and so I invited Paul Young to come and share his at our church.

PP: What was the response in your church?

TS: First I want to clarify that I asked Paul Young to come and talk about his book and give his testimony, which he did. I did not ask him to bring a bible study or a lecture. I was reminded of the Jesus Movement days when we would have people tell their stories during the worship service and people would be deeply moved by personal testimonies.

After Paul shared his vivid story in our church it triggered a unique and profound time of ministry of the Holy Spirit accompanied by prayer.  As the service was drawing to a close we invited anyone who desired to receive more ministry to stay a little longer and be prayed for.

When the service was dismissed a few people filed out but a majority of the people chose to stay and it took only minutes before God began working in our midst.  Without any prompting on our part—everywhere in the room members of our congregation gathered in clusters and began to pray.  People confessed their sins to God and then one another, parents and children began reconciliation before our very eyes and individuals were asking forgiveness of one another as ministry erupted throughout the sanctuary.

The prayers of these small groups of participants were spontaneous and unstoppable and the gentle weeping that hit more than a few was like a cleansing flood for lamenting souls. The type and degree of ministry of the Holy Spirit that we experienced after that service does not come around very often–quite frankly–if that wasn’t church, it’ll do ‘til church comes along.

In the days that have followed Paul’s testimony there has continued to be a good response from the people of our church.  Our counseling center at Crossroads has been swamped as people have continued to come to release their pain, bitterness and unforgiveness and renew their trust in Jesus.  The spiritual fruit of that Sunday service has been phenomenal and ongoing.

PP: Why is this book so popular? What nerve is Young hitting?

TS: I think that there are probably at least a couple of reasons why Paul’s book has been so successful.  First, I think The Shack presents intimacy with God in a relatable fashion and the average “Joe or Jane” is hungry for God.  It is just my opinion, but I think modern day Evangelicalism has had limited success in presenting– God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit—“as real and approachable” in terms of personal relationship.  Paul Young’s story of Mack who gets to know God up close and personal renews the faith of many who have always hoped that closeness with God would actually be possible.

Second, I also think we have failed in many ways to adequately answer some of the tough and often repeated hard questions people have. Questions such as, “Why does God let bad things happen to good people?” That oft asked question is a major theme of The Shack.  Those of us who are in the ministry have probably all given oversimplistic answers to this question and all too often we have given them to people who were in true anguish and personal pain. We have been guilty in many cases of failing to point out that; Romans 8:28 is a process and not a quick fix and The Shack patiently and emphatically points that out.

Evangelicals and Charismatics alike in the Body of Christ tend to be quick to heap guilt upon the grief-stricken.  The list of benefits that come from suffering come profusely and routinely from our lips without understanding, explaining or allowing for the comfort that can come from pouring out one’s heart in lament before God. We imply to hurting individuals that if they really trusted God they wouldn’t be sad in the midst of some personal tragedy.  We provide the head knowledge of should’s and ought’s that fuel the guilt residing in people who are unable to reach God’s standards by themselves.

The Shack is popular because the “everyman” in our society knows that their only chance at heaven is through a God that loves them, a lot, and is willing to hear their pain. The Shack strikes a nerve for anyone who has ever been angry at God, angry at themselves or hopelessly angry at a perpetrator and incapable of finding their way out of the maze of unforgiveness.  Paul Young, through this short novel that reeks of genuine love–while not flinching at depravity–sheds light on the path to true forgiveness through Jesus Christ and that is something this world longs for.

PP: Have you had opposition, if so why?

TS: Yes, we have received a few negative emails in response to our recommendation of The Shack. In our case they have been for the most part, sent from people who can’t get past the image of God as a large black woman.  We are patiently answering each one of these individually.

In response to this criticism, we explain the use of metaphor and symbolism in the Bible to illustrate the vast character of God.  God appeared to Moses as a burning bush but is not, in actuality, a plant. Jesus Himself uses the image of chicks under the protection of His wings but God is not a mother hen. Jesus is not a lion from a town named Judah but the title and symbolism is often used among Christians.

Along another vein, none of us will ever meet the “Good Samaritan” in heaven because he is not real, he was a character invented by Jesus. He was part of a parable, that is, a story that contains truth but in and of it self, may never have happened. Anyway, you get the idea. The opposition is just part of the healthy dialogue that has exploded in our church as people learn more about their Bible and its imagery and the closeness of God.

People in the aftermath of such conversation are better equipped as they seek a more intimate and real relationship with God through Jesus Christ. There has been no evidence of pagan idolatry in our church and most of the people who have read The Shack now know and understand what a Christian fiction novel is.

PP: Why are we so afraid?
TS: As Christians we do not form our corporate identity in a void. We come mostly from a group, movement, denomination, sect, Para church organization or alma mater. It is how vigorously that group defines itself or how uniquely distinctive it sees itself from others in the body of Christ that creates the parameters where fear is found. When the theological, philosophical and historic tenants of a group or movement are strictly outlined and reinforced, fear of the “outsider” becomes more prevalent and drawn attention to.

Some then are afraid when God blesses others outside their perceived boundaries. We are naturally afraid of diversity and are down right paranoid if said outsider is successful. The problem with all of that is that Paul the Apostle said that there would be diversities of ministries and Jesus said they will know us by our love for one another not how distinct we are from each another.

PP: What are a couple things you feel are most important to pass on to the men you are mentoring as pastors?

TS: One important message to the men I’m in dialogue with is, “Just say no!” to self-righteousness.  Jesus introduces the parable of the Pharisee and the Tax Collector with these words, “Also He spoke this parable to some who trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others.” Luke 18:9 NKJV

The subtlety of the mindset that says “Thank you God I’m not like other men” is dangerous and life altering. When someone can expound about how glad they are –not to be like that sinner over there, or that extortioner, or that unjust one, or that Purpose Driven Pastor or whatever–they are on dangerous ground. Humility is still the coin of the realm when it comes to ministry.

PP: Name the three most influential voices in forming your faith.

TS: The first book I laid my hands on after conversion was Mere Christianity, by C.S. Lewis. I read it over and over and realized that you could think and still be a Christian.  Then I read the Chronicles of Narnia, by Lewis and realized you could keep your imagination and still be a Christian artist and author and I was both. In the process I also unfortunately went to my local old school denominational church and found out you weren’t to believe any of the above and the tension that was created began the environment that I have lived most of my Christian life under.

The writings of Spurgeon were a second great influence on my life.  His stories of youthful entry into difficult ministry challenges gave me hope.  I read my story into his and prayed I could be used as he was.

Finally, Chuck Smith was the man with the critical timing in my life that recognized my call and gave me the opportunity to preach during the early moments of the Jesus Movement. My values, priorities and practices were formed in the cauldron of Bible exposition, evangelism, music ministry and preaching the radical Jesus that Chuck advocated. What were Pastor Chuck’s most memorable words to me?  He was blunt and pragmatic, and said “Just go and do what God is calling you to do.”“